INTELLIGENCE AGENCY

The TV show makes a summary of the annual conference on reforms in the security-intelligence sector held in Skopje, organized by the Geneva Center for Security Sector Governance - DCAF, where a series of questions were raised about the achievements, challenges and priorities in this field.

The director of the Intelligence Agency, Erolld Musliu was guest in the studio, with whom reforms were discussed, as well as the national security - the direct and indirect threats from the Russian invasion against Ukraine, hybrid strategies, the role of the Russian-Serbian Humanitarian Center in Nis, the Russian influence in the Macedonian political scene, the tension in the relations with Bulgaria, the open issues in the region, the ISIS returnees.

POPETREVSKI: Mr. Musliu, at the conference we heard two groups of assessments about the status of the reforms. One that the reform has been successful and what is not working at this moment remains to be fixed, corrected, which is mainly related to supervision. Meanwhile the second group assessed that we have a facade reform and due to that more fundamental changes are needed. What is your general view regarding the changes that have happened in this area after the massive wire-tapping scandal?

MUSLIU: The reform is definitely not a facade because if you remember well, let us go back to just a few years ago in 2014/2015 when our country was gripped by a deep security-political crisis, and of course, with the help of the EU, the reports and recommendations from Reinhard Priebe, we came to a situation where the security and intelligence system in our country had to undergo changes. Since 1995, it was only the Intelligence Agency that had its own law, while the Administration for Security and Counterintelligence was part of the Ministry of Interior, and such a situation arose that the technical capacities of the then Administration for Security and Counterintelligence were misused. From the Intelligence Agency’s point of view and mine as a professional who has been working in this sector for more than 28 years, I can say that from a legal perspective, the reform has been successful, all the recommendations and values have been applied, which as a matter of fact, are practiced by all European, allied security and intelligence services, however no system, no law is perfect, there is always room for improvement. You mentioned the moment of supervision and control. There is definitely a lot to work on as well, but in general, I, myself, am satisfied with the current situation.

POPETREVSKI: At the conference, you said that in the past three-year period, you have carried out several joint operations, counter-terrorist operations, and the last one was the expulsion of Russian diplomats, I assume, you mean jointly with the Agency for National Security. How does the Coordination Council established by a law passed in 2019 really work?

MUSLIU: Yes, literally, I continue in the same spirit. Definitely, there is coordination between the services, that is a fact, that we have carried out several joint counter-terrorist operations in the past three years, and that is a fact. The public knows. I mentioned the expulsion of Russian diplomats, not only this year, last year we also had such cases. In the area of ​​coordination, frankly speaking, there are still elements for improvement, primarily from an administrative-technical aspect, because within the framework of coordination, the Council for Coordination of Services is one segment, while the other segment is the Office, which is actually the operational body of the Council for coordination. When talking about the coordination, I would add that when the action was carried out, not only the Intelligence Agency and the Agency for National Security were involved, but there were also other segments, there were military personnel as well, there was also cooperation with the part of the military intelligence service.

POPETREVSKI: The establishment of the Council for Coordination is a political matter of the prime minister, it is set up according to law, it was supposed to be a response to the opinions, theses that have been heard for a long time in our country, whether there should be different institutions in this field or perhaps they should merge, primarily the Agency for National Security and the Intelligence Agency. What do you think about that, should the two agencies be merged?

MUSLIU: I would give this matter time. Let us see the reform show its result, as three years have passed since the adoption of the law on the Agency for National Security, while one year has passed since our law was adopted. We are starting to effectuate the coordination part. The matter whether the services should be merged or not is also an issue of democratic capacity and culture in our country. At this stage, are we ready to enter into such a more efficient solution, because in the region all the states, mostly, have one service in which the security element and counter-intelligence and the intelligence section are one entity. However, I believe that in this situation the conditions have not yet been met to be able to discuss a possible solution like this. I do not exclude that there will be a moment of merger. There are supporters of the merger of the services due to the economic and financial aspect, the Agency for National Security has a budget, the Intelligence Agency has a budget, the military intelligence has a budget, they all have separate budgets and some experts believe that if we are all under one umbrella, the funds will flow in one place, the human and the technical capacities to be joint, however let us still leave a little more time.

POPETREVSKI: Once again, I want to refer to the discussion of the MP Igor Janushev about the adoption of the law on the Intelligence Agency in January 2021. At the conference, the MP Janushev, had a remark about the way in which the law on the Intelligence Agency was passed, of course, you are not a member of parliament, do you perceive this as a handicap, in terms of the current position you have? Since the opposition does not agree with the way the law was passed.

MUSLIU: No. This is absolutely not a handicap. However, now it is a bit inconvenient for me that the MP is not present in the show. I heard his opinion. I feel inconvenient by the way he expressed that the law was pushed through in a smuggling manner, it is absolutely incorrect. If you recall the phase of adoption of the law, we followed all the procedures, there was a public debate in the parliament. However, the opposition at that time submitted, I must say banal, 1100 amendments, in which key remarks referred to the moment when the law should enter into force. Well, there were some amendments in there that requested that the law should take effect in 2023/2024. For the sake of truth, only a few of those amendments were of substantial importance and we incorporated them into the new law. About the fact that Mr. Janushev mentions that the European flag was used for this law, we should be pragmatic. The EU helped us in the process of reforming our security intelligence system. What flag was to be placed on the law? We could not go and wait indefinitely for the mutual clashes of the political actors in the Parliament.

POPETREVSKI: There are remarks that the placing of the European flag on some draft laws is sometimes misused. I guess his remark is along those lines.

MUSLIU: Well, that can be his attitude.

POPETREVSKI: What did the new law bring to the Intelligence Agency?

MUSLIU: The benefits of the law are important, above all for the security-intelligence sector in our country. For the first time, we defined ourselves as an institution responsible for foreign intelligence, and the Agency for National Security for the national security. With a simplified vocabulary for the citizens, our agency works abroad and collects information about threats coming from abroad and conducts intelligence operations, while the Agency for National Security works on the territory of our country. This is one of the benefits, where we have clearly defined who is who in the entire security system. Other things that were not specified in the previous law, e.g. what are the activities of the Intelligence Agency? We counted them, seven or eight. We had problems in the previous law with the employees’ rights. With this law, we became equal with all employees from the security sector. According to the new law, each employee with 40 years of service retires by law. We implemented some recommendations from the EU that we had, such as that racial, ethnic, gender discrimination is prohibited, rarely services in the region and even in Europe have this article. We implemented it. The law is very positive, whoever has read it will surely know that it is not as the MP says.

POPETREVSKI: From the aspect of staffing, what is the current situation?

MUSLIU: The personnel aspect is one of the challenges, I also said that at the conference. With the adoption of the new law, many of our colleagues retired last year and this year, but it opened up space for a new generation. Our challenge will be the change of generation. There is definitely interest among young people. One of the benefits of the law is transparency. We opened up to the citizens. We opened up to the society. And in that sense, we opened up to the young population who send us emails of interest and motivational letters on a daily basis, that they are interested in working in such an institution that performs a noble function. There is interest from various profiles, not only for human intelligence, but also from the IT sector, linguists, a lot has been achieved. I am sincerely satisfied.

POPETREVSKI: This is the form. I want to move on to the content of your work. You yourself said that the Agency works beyond the borders, competent to collect, analyze, assess, exchange, store and protect data and information of importance for the security, defense, foreign-political and economic interests of the Republic of North Macedonia. In the context of the Russian aggression against Ukraine, Mr.Musliu, were there any direct security threats to North Macedonia?

MUSLIU: There is no conventional threat. The conflict is far away. However, we are a NATO member, I can say that indirectly there are threats. However, if we analyze the conventional aspect, we border from the west, south and east with countries that are our NATO allies. In the north, we have Serbia, which is a militarily neutral country, we also have Kosovo, where the presence of KFOR is huge, we also have our troops there. But if we analyze Moscow’s latest statements, which until before the beginning of the aggression in Ukraine, was considered as a well-organized but unpredictable structure, now with the start of the aggression, and how they got stuck in Ukraine, we dismiss the part that they are well-organized, however the part that they are unpredictable remains. The point is that in the past month and a half we heard more often about the possibility of using tactical nuclear weapons. There were several officials from Moscow who sent such messages. This is the part of a direct opportunity of a conventional threat. Indirectly, there are definitely threats, these are the hybrid threats.

POPETREVSKI: Were there any hybrid attacks in the country?

MUSLIU: It is about a hybrid strategy. Russia has been present in this part of the region where we belong, in the Western Balkans, with its hybrid activity since 2012/2013. When creating a hybrid strategy, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a hybrid attack, tools are used. When strategists create this strategy, they put everything at their disposal; politics, diplomacy, intelligence, economy, energy security, military industrial capacity, fake news, and finally cyber danger, cyber attacks. All of these tools are available to strategists. The creator of the Russian hybrid strategy is today's Commander of the General Staff of the Russian Army Gerasimov. Frankly speaking, my impression is that until the start of the aggression against Ukraine, Russia worked much better with Gerasimov's doctrine of being present and influencing the region, not only in the Western Balkans but also in other regions through the hybrid strategy, rather than now, when it was obvious that their military power is not so coordinated, that's why in the introduction, I said that they were unpredictable, but I dismiss the part that they were well-organized.

POPETREVSKI: I want to ask you about the role of the Russian humanitarian center in Nis, on the hybrid threats, attacks even on North Macedonia?

MUSLIU: The Russian-Serbian Humanitarian Center has been present in the region since 2012. It was established for humanitarian purposes, to perform rescue operations, but the continuous insistence of the Russian side for the staff of this humanitarian center to have a special status, diplomatic status, raises several points, question marks. On the other hand, for the entire period, Serbia successfully rejected these Russian insistences. Successfully, since there was a lot of pressure from the Russian side for the staff to get diplomatic status, and realistically, as such a center, those employees should not have such diplomatic status.

POPETREVSKI: The Prime Minister Kovachevski talks about a part of the opposition that is on the phone with Russia all day long. Are there really political parties in the country that are under Russian influence, under direct Russian influence?

MUSLIU: I already said that Russia has been present in the region since 2012, through hybrid action, through which political influence is realized in a certain zone, whether in political parties, in creating public opinion among citizens, this is one part of the tool . However, the political organization in our country is a constitutional right of everyone. Still, from the position of the Director of the Intelligence Agency, I should emphasize that the membership in a political party does not provide anyone with an umbrella for immunity. Contacts with foreign intelligence services, working in the interest of foreign hybrid strategies, contacts with terrorist organizations, contacts with drug cartels, do not make anyone untouchable neither for the law nor for being a target for the Intelligence Agency.

POPETREVSKI: Are you speaking in principle now or are you associating it to some kind of practice, that we are witnessing in the country?

MUSLIU: I am saying this by principle and from practice. It is no secret that a large number of our exponents in the past period did not hide that they have direct contacts with Moscow. In the media we were witnesses to published trips of members of political parties and parliamentarians to Moscow with the Communist Party of Russia, etc.

POPETREVSKI: Thesis were heard at the conference that the opening of Bulgarian associations and clubs in Macedonia under the names Tsar Boris III, Vanco Mihajlov, Tsar Ferdinand is being announced, represent hybrid attacks, so it was said, do you agree with such theses?

MUSLIU: This is a similar question to the previous one you asked, the formation of citizens' associations, just like political parties, it is a constitutional right. If the idea for the good of society's development is indigenous, there is no problem here, without going into the legal regulations of how civil associations are registered, from this aspect that you are asking me about, the whole process in the past 10-12 years was clear and the intention of third actors to slow down the membership process of Macedonia, Montenegro, and other countries in NATO, as well as in the EU. In particular, regarding the Bulgarian associations, I consider this from a provocative point of view and it is in the interest of hybrid strategists who still do not give up on impeding or slowing down the path, for the Republic of North Macedonia to join the EU. But this has nothing negative in the relations between the the Intelligence Agency and the two civilian security intelligence services of the Republic of Bulgaria, which are our NATO allies, we work together, we exchange information about actors who act hybridly as well. Let us remember, there was the expulsion of diplomats of countries that hinder the negotiations process between Bulgaria and North Macedonia.

POPETREVSKI: A provocation by hybrid strategists, that's the wording you used, when translated it should mean that it may come from Bulgaria, but not necessarily is connected to the institutions of Bulgaria's official policy.

MUSLIU: Definitely yes, I would even say that even certain politicians who make strange statements from Bulgaria, and are motivated to cause racial, national and religious hatred, we treat them to that context. Also historians who try to give a political context in their statements, and belong to some sort of a past time, those who have not yet cleared up their ideological matrix from the past, belong within this framework.

POPETREVSKI: Do you think that Bulgaria sincerely wishes that North Macedonia becomes an EU member?

MUSLIU: Definitely yes, I have no doubt. For the whole process as well, since the Treaty of Friendship, Good-neighbourliness, and Cooperation was signed, even during the period when there was a veto, all the officials from official Bulgaria made statements, they clearly expressed their opinions that they want the Republic of North Macedonia to start negotiations with the EU as soon as possible. The only thing we are focused on are third actors who want to hinder our path to the EU.

POPETREVSKI: Are some of the other open issues in the region, e.g. the Belgrade-Pristina dialogue, the centrifugal tendencies of some of the entities in Bosnia and Herzegovina may be a threat to the security of North Macedonia?

MUSLIU: Regarding the Belgrade-Pristina dialogue. It is a dialogue for the normalization of relations between Belgrade and Pristina. This process started in the distant 2011. It had its own dynamics in 2013, 2015 until 2018, when suddenly, halted due to some constellation and influence in the region, just to mention two cases, Oliver Ivanovic was killed and on the other hand there was another event when taxes on Serbian products were established from Kosovo’s side, and it was motivated by Serbia's diplomatic activities, using its closeness with two members of the Security Council to obstruct Kosovo's path to join international institutions.The situation there is complex, but there is a dynamic, two points are perhaps a stumbling rock. One was overcome in the part of the telecommunications sector, there were problems, there were big misunderstandings, according to the Brussels agreement it was foreseen for the MTS Serbian telecom company to be given commercial space over the territory of the Republic of Kosovo, so some base stations were disputed, about 78, so with that agreement, they were allowed to have their own base stations at 22 points, while some other sensitive points were not allowed. The second most painful issue where the two sides are firmly buried is that the Kosovo side first insists on the recognition of Kosovo's independence, while the Serbian side insists on the union of Serbian municipalities. In that part, I positively evaluate the more dynamic involvement of the French and German diplomacy since this year, which are helping Lajcak, the American State Department is here as well and I hope it will gain momentum.

POPETREVSKI: Considering the connections between North Macedonia and Kosovo, and Serbia as well, are there any security implications for our country?

MUSLIU: No. So far, the Intelligence Agency does not have information that there is a conventional danger, we also cover the part that deals with terrorist threat, we work closely with the service of Republic of Kosovo, without forgetting that we also have our contingent of soldiers in Kosovo, we are also concerned about their safety. Up to this moment, from a security point of view, we have no information that there is danger.

POPETREVSKI: I asked the same thing about Bosnia?

MUSLIU: In Bosnia, the situation is also complex due to the constitutional indeterminacy of three constituent nations and two entities, mixed interests and hybrid actions. Bosnia has now come out of the election situation and what is the characteristic of the election results? An electoral crisis is visible in the Republic of Srpska, where the votes are now being counted, so there is even a variant of signature forensics. However, one thing was positive, it was noticed that the opposition both in the Republic of Srpska and in the other part of the Federation united to punish the national leaders and the political parties got their quota of votes. The danger is that certain politicians from the Republic of Srpska constantly use the term secessionism, parallel structures, military, security, etc. Fortunatelly, the international factor is now more focused on the situation in Bosnia as well, in the civilian part we have Schmidt who excellently does his job regardless of the fact that he is not recognized by Dodic and Russia has expressed great reservations about his function, on the other hand on the military side, we have EUFOR ALTEA, the mission whose mandate should be extended now on November 4th, so it is being discussed as an issue in the Security Council, there is a danger that Russia will put a veto. But on the other hand, our Western allies are also considering the possibility for the military presence in Bosnia to remain, regardless of whether Russia vetoes it.

POPETREVSKI: The time of this conversation is slowly coming to an end, I want to ask you about the Macedonian citizens who fought or are still fighting on the side of ISIS, are there still people who have not returned?

MUSLIU: Yes, there are four or five more who are members of Hajat Tahrir Al Sham, what was the greater part of ISIS members, those who died, the others who returned, served their prison sentences, and are undergoing a process of resocialization, rehabilitation . Furthermore, the Intelligence Agency was also seriously engaged in this part since the very beginning of the conflict in 2011. We, together with all the services in the region, I can also say this, if you asked me about the coordination of our services, I can say that at the regional level, regarding this issue, we had perfect coordination with all the services from the entire region. Imagine, since 2011, from the beginning of the conflict until now, about 1000 citizens originating from the Balkans have experienced fighting in Syria.

POPETREVSKI: Are any of the returnees a security threat to the country? I am asking this in the context of the information that was leaked in September 2020 that three people from Kumanovo were arrested in an anti-terrorist operation carried out by the National Security Agency and the Principal Public Prosecutor's Office for the prosecution of organized crime and corruption, but the news was that they were preparing terrorist attacks in Macedonia?

MUSLIU: This is about one of the joint operations that we carried out with the National Security Agency and the Public Security Bureau. Are returnees a security threat or not, this section is classified information. We work as a service, we monitor them. The National Security Agencyis active on the territory of the Republic of North Macedonia while we are active in the close neighborhood.

POPETREVSKI: Alright. Thank you for being a part of the 360 degrees TV show.

MUSLIU: Thank you for the invitation.

POPETREVSKI: It is a rare chance to speak with a director of an Intelligence Agency, speaking in general, it is rare here as well, although you appear in the media from time to time.

MUSLIU: The part with transparency is very important to us and one of the main qualities and values of the new leadership of the Intelligence Agency.

POPETREVSKI: Of course, despite all the limitations that the nature of your work brings.

MUSLIU: Definitely yes.

POPETREVSKI: Thank you once again.